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	<title>Comments on: Where Are The Good Development Tools For PHP?</title>
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	<description>Facebook should&#039;ve be written in unicornSchemaLang, because everyone *knows* that PHP is no good for anything, right?</description>
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		<title>By: maurogo</title>
		<link>http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/comment-page-1/#comment-6613</link>
		<dc:creator>maurogo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>http://www.extjs.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.extjs.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.extjs.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Where Are The Good Development Tools For PHP? &#124; PHP Coding Practices - Become an expert PHP Programmer</title>
		<link>http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/comment-page-1/#comment-6540</link>
		<dc:creator>Where Are The Good Development Tools For PHP? &#124; PHP Coding Practices - Become an expert PHP Programmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2007 20:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/#comment-6540</guid>
		<description>[...] programmer. &#8220;There&#8217;s no innovation going on in the language.&#8221;  Hop on over to the full article. it&#039;s certainly a good [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] programmer. &#8220;There&#8217;s no innovation going on in the language.&#8221;  Hop on over to the full article. it&#8217;s certainly a good [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Where Are The Good Development Tools For PHP, Part II &#124; PHP Coding Practices - Become an expert PHP Programmer</title>
		<link>http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/comment-page-1/#comment-6539</link>
		<dc:creator>Where Are The Good Development Tools For PHP, Part II &#124; PHP Coding Practices - Become an expert PHP Programmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2007 20:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/#comment-6539</guid>
		<description>[...] document.write(&quot;&quot;); } )()   Chris today posted a follow-up to his Where are the good development tools for php article he recently published. In the second part of the series chris goes into detail about [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] document.write(&#8220;&#8221;); } )()   Chris today posted a follow-up to his Where are the good development tools for php article he recently published. In the second part of the series chris goes into detail about [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Kimsal</title>
		<link>http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/comment-page-1/#comment-6430</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Kimsal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 16:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/#comment-6430</guid>
		<description>A primary issue here is that while there&#039;s some choice in the MS world, there&#039;s basically one proscribed way of doing basic things.  You want a datagrid?  Here&#039;s a datagrid control with the basic mechanics hardwired in.  You can customize it, but many of the mechanical decisions have been made for you.  Same with session management, form management, and many other aspects of web development (or app dev in general).

That sort of uniformity does not exist in the PHP world, which makes it hard/difficult/impossible to write IDEs which can take advantage of the &#039;one&#039; way of doing something.  Sure, you could write your own grid/pagination code in .NET for an ASP page, but why?  However, you&#039;re &#039;forced&#039;/&#039;allowed&#039; to choose from multiple options in the PHP world, so many so that &#039;rolling your own&#039; often becomes a viable option as opposed to researching/testing all the available options.

Too much choice at the mechanical level can be viewed as a bad thing.  Go find 10 PHP books and they&#039;ll all show you different ways of handling form processing and session management.  Go find 10 .NET books and you&#039;ll find pretty 10 examples all using the same techniques and code samples (for the most part).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A primary issue here is that while there&#8217;s some choice in the MS world, there&#8217;s basically one proscribed way of doing basic things.  You want a datagrid?  Here&#8217;s a datagrid control with the basic mechanics hardwired in.  You can customize it, but many of the mechanical decisions have been made for you.  Same with session management, form management, and many other aspects of web development (or app dev in general).</p>
<p>That sort of uniformity does not exist in the PHP world, which makes it hard/difficult/impossible to write IDEs which can take advantage of the &#8216;one&#8217; way of doing something.  Sure, you could write your own grid/pagination code in .NET for an ASP page, but why?  However, you&#8217;re &#8216;forced&#8217;/'allowed&#8217; to choose from multiple options in the PHP world, so many so that &#8216;rolling your own&#8217; often becomes a viable option as opposed to researching/testing all the available options.</p>
<p>Too much choice at the mechanical level can be viewed as a bad thing.  Go find 10 PHP books and they&#8217;ll all show you different ways of handling form processing and session management.  Go find 10 .NET books and you&#8217;ll find pretty 10 examples all using the same techniques and code samples (for the most part).</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Beckford</title>
		<link>http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/comment-page-1/#comment-6331</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Beckford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 15:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/#comment-6331</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s see... check out Open Laszlo for your interface solution.  It&#039;s declarative, as opposed to constructive.  It&#039;s kind of working for me, and as you very well know, the only reason I have eyes at all is to shed tears  for the pitiful lack of my design skills ;) 

Innovation gets tricky when everyone uses your language.  PHP is a victim of its success.  It aimed from the beginning to become a rival to ASP, and it has succeeded wildly. Of course, innovation loses market share sometimes, and last time I checked , Zend was a _business_.  

You have drag and drop available to you in a bunch of forms already, for gui development.  Just use a tool &quot;stack&quot; instead of some monolithic thing. 

Silverlight:  Please someone show me the market penetration for this product before we compare it to Flash... Is it even done yet?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s see&#8230; check out Open Laszlo for your interface solution.  It&#8217;s declarative, as opposed to constructive.  It&#8217;s kind of working for me, and as you very well know, the only reason I have eyes at all is to shed tears  for the pitiful lack of my design skills <img src='http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>Innovation gets tricky when everyone uses your language.  PHP is a victim of its success.  It aimed from the beginning to become a rival to ASP, and it has succeeded wildly. Of course, innovation loses market share sometimes, and last time I checked , Zend was a _business_.  </p>
<p>You have drag and drop available to you in a bunch of forms already, for gui development.  Just use a tool &#8220;stack&#8221; instead of some monolithic thing. </p>
<p>Silverlight:  Please someone show me the market penetration for this product before we compare it to Flash&#8230; Is it even done yet?</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/comment-page-1/#comment-6325</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 18:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/#comment-6325</guid>
		<description>Your post reminded me of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000845.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this recent post at Coding Horror&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000845.html&quot;&gt;
&quot;Historically, I&#039;ve used Microsoft development environments because they made my life easier. It&#039;s hard to look at this list and see how it&#039;s any easier than the open source alternatives. I also begin to look longingly at the open source developers who have been plugging away productively in Perl or Python over the last five years. Sometimes, you wonder if choosing an environment where things change more slowly isn&#039;t a better long term evolutionary decision. Perhaps there&#039;s a kernel of truth in Paul Graham&#039;s sensationalist Microsoft is Dead article: can you even name any startups that use Microsoft development tools?&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your post reminded me of <a href="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000845.html" rel="nofollow">this recent post at Coding Horror</a>:</p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000845.html"><p>
&#8220;Historically, I&#8217;ve used Microsoft development environments because they made my life easier. It&#8217;s hard to look at this list and see how it&#8217;s any easier than the open source alternatives. I also begin to look longingly at the open source developers who have been plugging away productively in Perl or Python over the last five years. Sometimes, you wonder if choosing an environment where things change more slowly isn&#8217;t a better long term evolutionary decision. Perhaps there&#8217;s a kernel of truth in Paul Graham&#8217;s sensationalist Microsoft is Dead article: can you even name any startups that use Microsoft development tools?&#8221;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Nick Halstead</title>
		<link>http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/comment-page-1/#comment-6323</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Halstead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 16:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/#comment-6323</guid>
		<description>Hi Chris,

You inspired me to write a full post on the subject of PHP and where it is going, and what we need to do about it. If you get a chance please have a read - &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.assembleron.com/2007/05/11/10-reasons-why-php-is-still-very-much-alive/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;10 Reasons why PHP is still very much Alive&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Chris,</p>
<p>You inspired me to write a full post on the subject of PHP and where it is going, and what we need to do about it. If you get a chance please have a read &#8211; <a href="http://blog.assembleron.com/2007/05/11/10-reasons-why-php-is-still-very-much-alive/" rel="nofollow">10 Reasons why PHP is still very much Alive</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nick Halstead</title>
		<link>http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/comment-page-1/#comment-6318</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Halstead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 07:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/#comment-6318</guid>
		<description>I certainly agree with your sentiment, we would also wish for easier to use visual tools that made the design work easier. I think the majority of programmers really enjoy the Model/Controller part of MVC but would rather chew their own leg off than have to get involved in the View part. 

I know in reality we all have to write a lot of the view code as there are not enough developer/designers out there who are proficient enough programmers and good enough designers. 

For all the visual aids I have worked and or seen working none of them have produced decent code or in fact sped up the process. The flow design in something like Weblogic looks amazing but I can bet you I can write the code quicker myself than you twiddling around with what looks like Microsoft Visio.

The fact is right now the tools available can only ever cope with most simple of examples and certainly not for a complex application (which is what we want them for)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly agree with your sentiment, we would also wish for easier to use visual tools that made the design work easier. I think the majority of programmers really enjoy the Model/Controller part of MVC but would rather chew their own leg off than have to get involved in the View part. </p>
<p>I know in reality we all have to write a lot of the view code as there are not enough developer/designers out there who are proficient enough programmers and good enough designers. </p>
<p>For all the visual aids I have worked and or seen working none of them have produced decent code or in fact sped up the process. The flow design in something like Weblogic looks amazing but I can bet you I can write the code quicker myself than you twiddling around with what looks like Microsoft Visio.</p>
<p>The fact is right now the tools available can only ever cope with most simple of examples and certainly not for a complex application (which is what we want them for)</p>
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		<title>By: Stojce Slavkovski</title>
		<link>http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/comment-page-1/#comment-6315</link>
		<dc:creator>Stojce Slavkovski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 22:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/#comment-6315</guid>
		<description>Try vs.php from www.jcxsoftware.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try vs.php from <a href="http://www.jcxsoftware.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.jcxsoftware.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dieter_be</title>
		<link>http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/comment-page-1/#comment-6313</link>
		<dc:creator>Dieter_be</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 19:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard/2007/05/08/where-are-the-good-development-tools-for-php/#comment-6313</guid>
		<description>Funny, I was just discussing this matter this afternoon with a friend (who really likes the drag &#039;n drop stuff in visual studio).
I don&#039;t think such stuff makes up for the rest.  Sure, you&#039;ll win a little time (with for example a drag &#039;n drop editor), but if you want a decent application you should at least audit (and probably optimize) the generated code.  So basically you&#039;ll generate some code which acts as a starting point for further development/optimization.  Other utilities, while not so good-looking provide similar functionality: code generation scripts, or even code templates in your idea.  A decent framework with a good api is also a great help.  There are plenty of things like these in the php world.

I guess, if anything, the languages in which we write (and show) graphical interfaces could use a face lift.  The combination of html/css/javascript(/xml) is pretty flexible but very inconsistent (and thus, requires much effort)  Ironically, the company behind the so great ide and technologies has played a huge role in this.

Also, php has some advantages over its competitors. (as well as disadvantages).  I assume we all know what they are.  Don&#039;t forget those too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny, I was just discussing this matter this afternoon with a friend (who really likes the drag &#8216;n drop stuff in visual studio).<br />
I don&#8217;t think such stuff makes up for the rest.  Sure, you&#8217;ll win a little time (with for example a drag &#8216;n drop editor), but if you want a decent application you should at least audit (and probably optimize) the generated code.  So basically you&#8217;ll generate some code which acts as a starting point for further development/optimization.  Other utilities, while not so good-looking provide similar functionality: code generation scripts, or even code templates in your idea.  A decent framework with a good api is also a great help.  There are plenty of things like these in the php world.</p>
<p>I guess, if anything, the languages in which we write (and show) graphical interfaces could use a face lift.  The combination of html/css/javascript(/xml) is pretty flexible but very inconsistent (and thus, requires much effort)  Ironically, the company behind the so great ide and technologies has played a huge role in this.</p>
<p>Also, php has some advantages over its competitors. (as well as disadvantages).  I assume we all know what they are.  Don&#8217;t forget those too!</p>
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